Fwd: [VOTE] Change JSecurity's Name

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Fwd: [VOTE] Change JSecurity's Name

Alan D. Cabrera
A reply.


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Marc Poussin" <[hidden email]>
> Date: January 12, 2009 5:07:17 AM PST
> To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Change JSecurity's Name
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
> Emmanuel,
> Actually if you file for TMing JSecurity you wont get "sued", but you
> may receive oppositions, wich have to be discussed in front of the
> trademark office you filed in (USPTO in the US, INPI in France etc...)
> Oppositions are not systématically formed, and other people may not
> claim their rights on the name.
> If you get the TM allowed it will have 3 main conséquences:
> You re entitled to sue anyone using it to protect your right (it s not
> mandatory but usefull :) )
> You have to pay more and more each year to keep your trademark
> protected (TM Fees)
> You have to USE the TM or it could be dismissed by any intrested  
> third party.
> It's never mandatory to TM something, because of the cost. TMing gives
> you a right, and allow you to protect yourself. TM system has been
> designed to help yourself to protect a name in which you invest
> time/money.
> It's kind of a race in the same time. If two companies have similar
> products (in term of CLASSES), and the same notoriety, then the first
> to register the TM is usually the one that has the TM granted.
> Then you can force legally the other guy to drop the name for his  
> own products.
> About the second question:
> Using the name for more than 4 years gives you no right at all. Only
> the famous Names are "insidly protected". For example, you could not
> register Coca-Cola, or Google for t-shirt or shooes, (in the case they
> dont have protected the class) not because the name is not free, but
> because it would be deceiving for any consumer.
> But i wont say that Apache Jsecurity project is yet as well know to
> John Doe than Google or Coca-Cola, so, i will say there is any
> protection existing on that ground.
> The only intresting point of this aging is the following: if there is
> an opposition due to the fact that j-security estimate his use of the
> name older, then you could prove, or not, that you were the first in
> the business using that name.
> If you got other questions dont hesitate,
> Cheers,
> Marc
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>> Thanks Marc !
>> Some questions :
>> - what are the risks and consequences if we TM JSecurity, and get  
>> sued?
>> - is it mandatory to TM JSecurity, or the fact that it has been in  
>> used for
>> more than 4 years is enough to protect the name ?
>> Marc Poussin wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> After cautious reading of that issue i just checked briefly one  
>>> single
>>> element:
>>> Trademark registration is done trough a "class" system, defined by  
>>> the
>>> Nice classification.
>>> Usually, a trademark is registred trough one or more classes  
>>> numbered
>>> from 1 to 45
>>> The trademark form allow you to define what good or service will be
>>> covered by the filing, according to the class.
>>> When a trademark form is filled, you just choose the class  and not
>>> the subdivision that you intend to protect, and you'll be protected
>>> against counterfeiting acts for this whole class.
>>> It appears that even if jsecurity and j-security have a really
>>> different activity, one being on hardware, the other one on  
>>> software,
>>> they both are dependant of class 42 (different subdivision):
>>> http://www.wipo.int/classifications/nivilo/nice/index.htm
>>> So, i would recommand a quick trademark filing, especially on  
>>> class 42
>>> if you want to preserve the name, especially if:
>>> -the name is popular and already widely used by apache users
>>> -j-security (apachie) project is older in a public way than  
>>> jsecurity
>>> (hardware)
>>> -there is already a wide policy of domain name reservation in  
>>> favor of
>>> apache on jsecurity (like .com, .net, .org etc.) because domain  
>>> names
>>> could be regarded as anteriorizing a trademark...
>>> If that name could be used for any identifical/commercial purpose  
>>> now
>>> or later, and it's decided not to protect it, changing name would be
>>> the best option, at least on a trademark law point of view.
>>> A court argument could always be that they got different activities,
>>> and that there is (almost) no risk for the public to be deceived. I
>>> would like to point that, in front of a judge wich doesn't  
>>> understand
>>> much on computers (and that shit happens often), that kind of
>>> argumentation will be quickly dismissed regarding to classes and
>>> trademark law...
>>> Concerning google, the trademark is not really an issue anymore,
>>> because they re so well known that they could argue mainly on
>>> parasitism, and keep the trademark issues around theyr main  
>>> services,
>>> where even if the google could be regarded as a public domain  
>>> term, it
>>> wont deprive them from their right to protect against copyright
>>> infrigment.
>>> In the same time, i would say that public usage do not allow to do
>>> anything, just think about Parmesan cheese, and some other French
>>> wine, and italian ham...
>>> Cheers
>>> Marc
>>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:05 AM, Niclas Hedhman <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> As for Google, I think they actually have a fairly serious  
>>>>> problem.
>>>>> "google"
>>>>> and "googling" have become synonymous with searching for  
>>>>> information
>>>>> (see
>>>>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/google or
>>>>> http://www.reference.com/search?q=Googler). From what I've read  
>>>>> this is
>>>>> exactly how a company can lose control of their trademark. I'd  
>>>>> venture
>>>>> that
>>>>> if you created a product named "Super Googler" that they would  
>>>>> sue you,
>>>>> but
>>>>> given that the term is now in the public domain I'm wondering if  
>>>>> they'd
>>>>> actually win. OTOH, you'd be pretty stupid to name your product  
>>>>> that
>>>>> unless
>>>>> you want to be sued.
>>>> You are right that if you don't protect your marks, you loose them.
>>>> Whether that has happened for Google already or not, is a  
>>>> discussion
>>>> for the courts...
>>>> If there is no JSecurity registered as TM or equivalent, then  
>>>> Alan's
>>>> analogy is way off the mark of realism. And speaking of Google, in
>>>> today's day and age, people who don't regularly google their  
>>>> marks and
>>>> see 'intruders' show up all over the first page, can be argued, are
>>>> not really interested in preventing others from using the mark.
>>>> My vote after all this debate is in favor keeping the name, and  
>>>> only
>>>> act when/if there is a problem.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Niclas
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>> --
>> --
>> cordialement, regards,
>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>> www.iktek.com
>> directory.apache.org
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